Author Topic: Hi-Fi socket by Biodesigns  (Read 4868 times)

Offline Mitchee

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Hi-Fi socket by Biodesigns
« on: November 29, 2009, 08:05:25 PM »
Hello.  Does anyone use a Hi-Fi socket developed by Biodesigns or do you use a similar style socket? 

I am interested in learning more about their BK socket.  I will email the company for more info but I was hoping that someone used something similar and can tell me about it and how they like it. 

Thanks.
Initial injury:  July 1985
Amputation:  December 2006 - Ertl LBKA

"The journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step."
 -Lao Tzu

Offline chrysochloridae

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Re: Hi-Fi socket by Biodesigns
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2009, 04:09:54 PM »
Hi Mitchee

Thanks 4 posting about this topic. I found it really interesting to look into

I've never seen or heard of this system before so i had a look into it. The BK socket looks similar to a traditional PTB (Patella Tendon Bearing) design mixed with some of the principals of Total Surface bearing design, additional posterior pressure and held together on an ISNY (Icelandic-Swedish-New York) style frame.

I can't see how it would attach to anything as it doesn't seem to have any kind of distal adaptor

I quickly read the literature and i couldn't see exactly how this type of socket would give better feedback or control of your limb - as with any socket, if the fit is good then you will have good control over the prosthesis and i'd imagine these sockets would have to be REALLY tight

Other problems i can see with it are that all the load will be spread over a smaller area, which will increase the chance of pressure sores / wounds developing

Also, i'd imagine that (Long Term) it could cause the soft tissue areas to atrophy (e.g. people who wore the old Number 8 style legs with the thigh corset tend to have much smaller thigh muscles on the prosthetic side due to the tightness of the corset (Cuff Strap wearers tend to get it too)) which would seriously decrease the chance of getting any conventional sockets to fit

I read the upper limb socket design article on O&P.com and that was really interesting

I'd only consider this design if you have a VERY muscular stump, no vascular problems and no chance of volume change


Offline Mitchee

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Re: Hi-Fi socket by Biodesigns
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2009, 06:02:22 PM »
Chrysochloridae, thanks for your post.

I was interested in learning about the socket because it is supposed to be good for high-energy activities.  I was considering it for a second socket/leg to be used only for cycling.  After talking to my prosthetist, we have decided to make another socket designed specifically for cycling (similar to the cycling socket I use now). 

Thanks again for your reply.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 06:04:50 PM by Mitchee »
Initial injury:  July 1985
Amputation:  December 2006 - Ertl LBKA

"The journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step."
 -Lao Tzu

Offline chrysochloridae

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Re: Hi-Fi socket by Biodesigns
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2009, 05:51:56 PM »
I'd imagine something like that might be ok 4 cycling as the forces will be acting differently to those in walking

Whats the plan 4 the cycling socket? I usually use a lock and pin system (with a thin liner that will bend well at the knee e.g. Iceross Wave liner) with a low cut out at the back.

Other useful thing 4 (serious) cycling is getting a pyramid adapter attached to an SPD cleat and attaching this device to the tube from the prosthesis

Offline pegleg jack

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Re: Hi-Fi socket by Biodesigns
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2009, 10:31:22 AM »
havent been on much lately, just havent had much to say, bput here is an idea for you cycling leg, do as a friend i know that fly his own plane and it has toe brakes on it, he up and welded a piece of pipe on the brake pedal and when he flys he wears his peg leg and sticks the peg into the piece of pipe and that way he has control of that pedal and brake. JUST and idea.
you-all have a great day.

Offline Mitchee

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Re: Hi-Fi socket by Biodesigns
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2009, 04:02:06 PM »
I'd imagine something like that might be ok 4 cycling as the forces will be acting differently to those in walking

Whats the plan 4 the cycling socket? I usually use a lock and pin system (with a thin liner that will bend well at the knee e.g. Iceross Wave liner) with a low cut out at the back.

Other useful thing 4 (serious) cycling is getting a pyramid adapter attached to an SPD cleat and attaching this device to the tube from the prosthesis


Hi Chrysochloridae.  I use a pin-lock system for my "everyday" prosthesis and my cycling prosthesis.  I haven't had any problems with it so I'm going to stick with the pin-lock system for now.  I use Iceross sport liners for both cycling and everyday use.  I really like them.  Due to volume changes, I'm in the prcoess of getting a new "everyday" socket made.  After I get my definitive carbon fiber socket, we will use the last clear plastic "temporary" socket as my cycling socket.  (I will eventually have a carbon fiber cycling socket made.)  My prosthetist modified the last socket for cycling by trimming the back side of the socket so that it didn't dig into the back of my thigh when I pedaled.  He also altered the shape of the socket at the end of my tibia so that the end of my tibia didn't rub against the front of the socket with the force of every pedal stroke/revolution.  The last modification was to to add a longer pylon to the cycling prosthesis.  The additional length allows me to complete the pedal stroke without shifting my weight in the saddle.  I also don't have to swap sockets because I have the cycling socket mounted on my old pylon and carbon fiber foot so I have a separate prosthesis for cycling.  Due to the modifications, the cycling prosthesis is used only for cycling.  As for cycling, I ride mountain, road and track (velodrome) bikes.  All of my bikes use a cleat pedal system and have either SPD or Look pedal systems.  As long as I have a tight fitting cycling socket I don't have any problems clipping in and out of the pedals.     

Michelle
Initial injury:  July 1985
Amputation:  December 2006 - Ertl LBKA

"The journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step."
 -Lao Tzu

RAlley

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Re: Hi-Fi socket by Biodesigns
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2009, 08:12:24 PM »
Hello all,

I ran across this forum discussion and wanted to give you a brief response as I am the inventor of the Hi-Fi interface.
I won't "try and convince you" to get one, as that is not my place in this forum, but I do want to state the facts.

It was borne out of a desire to improve the biomechanics in traditional and current sockets designs and it does that in a significant way.
I haven't released the details to the general public as I am awaiting patent notification.

As I have spent my entire career teaching other prosthetists innovative interface designs based on biomechanics as opposed to simple encapsulation of the limb, I feel I have given them enough of my heart and soul and want to keep this between my patients/clients and me, at least for now. The concept is utilized in the DARPA (funded by the Dept. of Defense) program known as the LUKE arm project  (Dean Kamen's company Deka Research is the primary contractor, biodesigns and Next Step O&P are the prosthetic consultants) as well as being involved in an optimization study for the VA.

It has been fit on a variety of upper limb patients domestically and internationally, both in my private practice as well in other civilian and military applications. It has been fit on over 40 individuals with femoral amputations alone without a single complaint or negative issue arising. I have yet to attempt this design for the tibial level so any comments made on the design for this level are pure conjecture and based on assumptions that though logical, do not apply. I have only shown to the public radial, humeral and femoral applications. I won't get into the specific reasons why I have not yet attempted to fit a tibial patient, but have several soldiers in line ready and waiting to try it once I give them the green light. I can hint that the tibial design will be my most radical endeavor yet but I am looking for local, southern California patients interested in high-performance testing, be it biking, running, tennis, etc. prior to offering it to others out of the area. I want to be sure it is dialed in and above reproach. It can be used with and without liners, with and without pins, and can be solid-bodied of cage design, depending on user preference. Range of motion, energy expenditure, comfort, stability, and overall level of performance are superior to any known interface design at the amputation/amelia levels for which it has been utilized, and I want to ensure the same performance for the tibial prosthesis wearer or you won't hear a thing more about it.

Okay, that's enough for now. I am open to discussing the design with prosthetic wearers only, so please understand that I cannot give out any information to other prosthetists until such time I have decided to certify others in its design, which may be awhile. It is much more complex than meets the eye due to issues of adequate blood perfusion in the tissues under load, controlled window edema, intrinsic bone control, etc., which is why it can be judged by merely seeing a picture of it. I use proprietary techniques and sensors to ensure safety and prolonged comfort/acceptance and use.

Please remember, I am not here to talk any of you into coming out to see me but I wanted to address the above posts to avoid misinformation. I am happy to explain why it is truly unlike anything ever offered in the field before to those of you who are interested, and will be the first to tell you if I feel you may not be a suitable candidate for such an interface system.

You can contact me via my website www.biodesigns.com and I apologize to this forum's host if I have overstepped my bounds. I just can't let misinformation prevail, there's enough of that going on in this field as it is. Thank you,

Randall

Offline chrysochloridae

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Re: Hi-Fi socket by Biodesigns
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2009, 11:19:39 AM »
Hey RAlley

Its great you posted on here 2 try give more info, after all, the science of Prosthetics is best discussed and evidence shared.

I'm a prosthetist and i can understand why you are keeping things close to your chest at the moment! I'd love 2 chat more about your designs when the time comes that you can discuss them

I read the article on your website "New Interface Design Benefits the High-Performance Individual" and thought that the Hi-Fi socket was for below knee (the picture on the top left looked like a Supracondyler transtibial socket); sorry if i got the wrong end of the stick on that one!

I also read the article on "Biomechanical Discussion of Current and Emergent Upper-Limb Prosthetic Interface Designs"; i do my sockets in a very similar way to the ACCI method - i always thought my sockets looked different from the traditional Northwestern Supracondyler design (in that i build up over the olecranon and try to load soft tissues) but i've never had any complaints!

So far, i've not heard anyone in the UK discuss your sockets, and i'd love to be the first to do so when you are able.

RAlley

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Re: Hi-Fi socket by Biodesigns
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2009, 03:21:34 AM »
chrysochloridae,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
You seem to be thoughtful as well in your approach to interface design.

I would consider you at the top of my list to talk to about this concept when that time comes. Hopefully soon.

And thank you for taking the time to read some of what I've written. Glad to know there are those out there that look beyond what foot or elbow to put on and what size liner to use.

I was just out in Scotland a few weeks ago. Where in the UK are you?

Please keep in touch and I look forward to meeting you someday.

Offline Mitchee

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Re: Hi-Fi socket by Biodesigns
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2009, 04:06:46 PM »
Hi Randall.  Thanks for posting the great info.  I was under the impression that your BK socket was already available to the general public.  I apologize for any confusion that my post may have caused.

I am an avid cyclist and maybe someday I will be a good candidate for your BK socket.  I wish I lived closer to So Cal, I would love to be a test patient.  Good luck with your socket design.  I look forward to learning more about it.

Michelle
Initial injury:  July 1985
Amputation:  December 2006 - Ertl LBKA

"The journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step."
 -Lao Tzu